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Cliff Bleszinski (a.k.a. Cliffy B.) of Epic Games spoke to Wired about Gears of War 2, and how they’re planning to make it more “girlfriend-friendly.” Here’s the full quote:
How do you make a game girlfriend-friendly?
You do jump-in, jump-out co-op. You have configurable difficulty settings for the other player. You have very cool and bad-ass main characters that have a very human side. And you make sure that the female characters in your game don’t have ginormous tits and aren’t bad stereotypes.
Yes, stereotypes are annoying, but I have a feeling that’s not what is keeping your girlfriends from playing GoW. Because frankly, I think we’re all a little desensitized to stereotypes in video games: play 10 minutes of (the absolutely stellar) GTA4 to see what I’m talking about.
Let me preface this by saying that I’m probably not typical. However, I think there’s a decently-sized segment of the female gamer population that feels the same way. It’s nothing in-game that would ever keep me from playing GoW2. You could make the female characters mostly naked and baking cookies in the cut scenes for all I care (OK, that was a joke). I played through the entire story mode of GoW, and the last thing on my mind was the outfits. No, it’s the online play experience that I can’t tolerate. As a woman who has attempted to play against random people on various shooters, I can say with certainty that anonymous jerkwads who have never known the touch of a woman are the reason I won’t try it again. Half the time you’re better off pretending to be a 14-year old boy with a high voice than admit to being a girl.
In an excellently-written article on Gamasutra, Bill Fulton (who developed the online social aspects of Shadowrun) wrote:
Of all the ways I spend my free time, playing games online is the only one I would describe as “frequently barbaric”. Insults of all kinds, including racist and homophobic slurs, are commonplace.
The women I know who play online avoid anything that would identify them as female — including voice communication — in order to avoid the unwanted, and frequently negative, attention.
…
Why do I care? Some gamers might be thinking “If he’s so thin-skinned that he can’t take the online banter, maybe he shouldn’t play online.” Unfortunately, many people do just that — they stop playing online.
Is it a reality of online gaming, particularly on Xbox Live, something that we just have to put up with? Sure, you can mute them, but it unless the game has it built directly into their interface, you’ll be wasting valuable playing time digging around in their gamer card. The rating system is also a joke, since it won’t really keep people out of your lobby. Every game should have an easy way to mute and block certain players when you’re playing online, and it seems that not many do.
If that were fixed, it would certainly make me want to play more online. I appreciate that Cliffy B. is thinking about making the game “girlfriend-friendly” but I don’t know if that’s really at the heart of the matter. What does that even mean anyway? Would a girlfriend that was considering playing a game like GoW2 really be the kind of girl to change her mind because of a few tight outfits? That’s another blog post, I guess.
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37 Responses for "How to really make GoW2 more “girlfriend-friendly”"
I don’t think any of that will help if the girl doesn’t enjoy that type of game in the first place… as for the girls that do play, they don’t seem to care much about the blood and guts.
Misogynistic themes are still present in games (like GTAIV) and will turn off many women, but that’s not really a problem for a game like Gears of War 2. If a girl is willing to play a game in which the player uses a chainsaw to kill an enemy, I doubt she’ll care too much about big tits or any of that.
I agree the online experience is what really hampers the experience for women; during my days of CS 1.6 and Source, I couldn’t keep count of the number of preteen and teenage boys that hit on the two girls of my clan.
I think you hit the nail on the head, V. Even as a guy I totally avoid the online aspect of xbox 360 games. The frequent swearing, and socially unconscionable language is not worth putting up with for expanded gameplay. I more or less use live to communicate with friends and family. Furthermore, I don’t see changing the outfits and reducing breast size as a way to involve more girl gamers. A commitment to taking the time to develop games that dont need that aspect to make them better needs to be made. I think that the online aspect of gaming will be a self correcting, but it will take some time. It’s just a shame it pushes away countless gamers.
-TPNDrew, ThePowerNine.com
You should check out gaming communities like http://www.seasonedgamers.com/forums/ and http://www.geezergamers.com/ as i’ve found them the only way to really enjoy playing online. When I play online I pretty much only play with people in those communities, and I know SeasonedGamers had some girl only clans and tourneys, but the girls were quite happy playing against anyone in the community because there was some accountability and no one was anonymous.
People are always going to be jerks online. Always. See: John Gabriel’s Greater Internet ****wad Theory.
Just as I have come to live with spam, muggings, getting cut-off on the highway, and people leaving their carts in the middle of the grocery isle, I have come to live with jerks on forums/chat rooms/games.
You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of life.
One few issues I have with GTA IV is the complete inability to identify who’s talking in multiplayer (unless they are standing right in front of you and you can see the dot above their model turn to a dot with a speaker icon inside it), making it nearly impossible to mute the annoying/rude/racist/idiot players.
That, coupled with the fact that GTA itself draws these kinds of people out in droves, makes the online random-player-match-ups somewhat unpleasant at times.
I wish more of my friends had 360s and so my so-called “friends list” could be populated with people I actually know!
I stopped playing online after hearing all of the racist, homophobic and sexist comments. I just couldn’t put up with it, and I imagine it’s even more infuriating for women and gay men. While having the ability to mute certain people wouldn’t hurt, that doesn’t change the fact that so many people are openly discriminatory. For me to want to play online again, there would have to be a culture shift, and I’m not so optimistic about that happening. I’ll just stick to single player for now.
Hear, hear to 6-3-2 – was just going to comment that it’s equally as infuriating to play online as a gay guy with 14-year olds constantly yelling really offensive crap over voice chat.
I took one attempt at online GTA voice chat with a headset then gave up immediately. What’s more upsetting in most cases is that it’s the older guys (who sound easily 25-35 years old) that are the worst offenders.
Until games implement some kind of technology that blocks crap like this from entering my ear canal equally as well as Akismet blocks spam on my blog, I’m opting out of the public voice chat, kthx.
Pretty horrible stuff you’re describing. I haven’t spent too much time in the online console arena so I can barely even imagine the kind of stuff you’re talking about. Maybe that’s a good thing.
Sometimes it’s hard for us to imagine what the player on the other side of the screen is thinking or feeling.
By the way, good to see another blog post! Don’t leave us hanging!
im really in the mood for some cookiez now.
It’s half and half I’d say. It’s either I’m being called names, or being revered as the girl who is playing xbox live. I will agree that the older guys are a lot less accepting. I always kind of get a kick out of when someone asks if I’m a little boy or an woman.
I feel like I should add something to my previous comment. I think more people need to say firmly that the kind of discriminatory and hateful language that gets spewed out in online games and all kinds of other online spaces is totally unacceptable. We may roll our eyes and point to the jerktard equation, but unless more people clearly say that discriminatory language anywhere in unacceptable, nothing is going to change. Maybe if more people with a large audience online called out this behavior like Veronica has, discriminatory language online could become more stigmatized.
The first time I played a 360 was 4 months ago. I was dying to finally get to play Halo 3, but my friends only wanted to play the big multiplayer levels. I couldn’t believe how difficult it was to mute players. I didn’t care what they had to say, it was always stupid stuff, but I would have to go in an individually mute every player on every different round.
After spending one evening listening to the most racist/homophobic/not funny pre-pubescent boys, I was totally turned off from the 360.
I’m curious to know from the WoW enthusiasts out there whether or not this type of behavior exists there, too, and if not, why not.
In my own experience with online voice chat (mainly Team Fortress 2 for the PC) I haven’t encountered a lot of degenerate talk, and it makes me wonder if this epidemic is somehow endemic to the 360, or at least more rampant there.
[...] How to really make GoW2 more “girlfriend-friendly” – Veronica Belmont She makes an excellent point. (tags: games gaming videogames women epic) Posted in Links [...]
I really agree with you Veronica about the negative attention girls get on Xbox Live. I play with this girl on Halo3 online all the time and I constantly have to defend her and tell people to STFU. There is an appalling amount of people you really have to report and mute. It is quite rare to hear a girl’s voice on xbox live – this would be a big part of the reason why. I know there’s lots of girls that would rather not let people know their gender based on the things I’ve heard.
So… how is the Wii Fit training going? losing a lot of body fat and gaining tons of muscle and stamina?
Btw, the only really “girlfriend friendly” games I know of are titles like Barbie Fashion Show and the such…
People say Cliffy B. looks cute with his two earrings.
Did I mention I hate the Unreal Engine for destroying creativity in the game development process because everybody gets too lazy to make their own engine?
I think you’ve found what Tom Peters wrote about in Re-Imagine, Disney has always known, and game producers need to learn. It isn’t about the user interface. It is about the user experience. You’ve got some great, easy to implement ideas for making online game play a more enjoyable experience for everyone involved. I hope the game industry is listening.
It’s not just girls who need that fix, personally I don’t play games online. I am interested in it, but the XBox model won’t do for me. I have no desire to play against:
1. People who are abusive or use foul language
2. People who trick the system so they can stomp on people much less experienced than them
3. People who have too much time on their hands and mastered the game the first week
4. And worse once they’ve reached 3, they then turn their sites on having fun by ruining other peoples fun.
So far I’ve had few if any good online experiences. I really expected that as it became more mainstream these experiences would fade and online play would mature. Guess I’m still waiting. Here’s hoping that Nintendo’s opposite strategy gets better too. I like to know that I’m always playing against my friends, but how do I get us all to play at the same time? Perhaps I just need a few hundred more friends who all have the same games that I do…
XBOX Live is a, well, it’s a place for little boys (young and old) to act like jackasses, hiding behind the anonymity of the web. I recently got a xbox 360, I havent decided if I’l bother with XBOX Live again or just keep my online gaming isolated to QW:ET, TF2 and WoW. The first of which I do not speak in, but I have not heard very much on the side of slurs.
Thanks Veronica for blogging this, it needs to get out there to the people developing these systems and games.
I recall some article you might be interested in… Here we are, it’s from ‘05 and is called “OMG Girlz Don’t Exist on teh Intarweb!!!!1”
Your argument boils down to the supposition that women are less tolerant of profane and derogatory commentary than men. I have never found this to be the case, but it doesn’t matter either way because the supposition is irrelevant to problem at hand — that kids swear too much. Shooters are havens for “loud-mouthed punk kids” and this will never change — it’s a cultural norm. The only way this will change is if parents change.
The only way to enjoy a shooter is to find a community that polices its servers and strictly enforces rules. The only way to effectively police a community is to have complete control over it, so console games are ruled out here by default. Shooters are better played on PCs, anyway.
For example, I’ve played for years with a group called the Over 30 Club, and they’re the only people I’ll ever play ANY shooter with. I’m 20 myself, but their motto is, “If you’re not 30, fake it.” If you curse up a storm or use racist or defamatory language, you’re permanently banned, and members and visitors alike are held to the same standards. About 5% of the community is female and they’re not afraid of being identified as such because the community is made up of adults who can handle “omg boob-bearers” being present.
Somehow I doubt the sincerity/veracity of Cliffy’s desire to see games made more “girlfriend friendly.” He’s talking about making the games more mature, basically, but in the same sentence he uses the word “tits”. Maybe I’m the only one who sees this as a striking dichotomy indicative of hypocrisy. Is “tits” a word that one uses in polite conversation? I can understand how it could be worked into the vernacular of a game’s fiction, but that was just Cliffy talking to people about his own initiative…
May need to back up a step or two, and revisit the intial purchase at the Best Buy:
Me: Hey Gears of War is only $59.99
Her: Oh you’ll spend 60 bucks on a game, but take me to Carl’s Jr. for dinner?
Me: Hey you like Carl’s Jr….
Her: Would that 60 bucks be better spent on something fun we can go do together, OUTSIDE, IN THE REAL WORLD?!
Best Buy dude: Can O help you make a decision on anything?
Me: Yes, do you have a sister is single?
A few things to consider that could make your Xbox Live experience better ( an experience YOU pay for):
Be sure to set your “zone” correctly; I think a lot of people are using this incorrectly. I myself reside in “Pro” because I’m always about the gg. Win or lose, it doesn’t matter to me; I just want good, friendly, honest competition.
Many of the “abusive, immature, swearing” players are or SHOULD be in the “Underground” zone. If you read through the description….it’s really just saying people in that zone don’t give a f*ck.
Please, please PREFER or AVOID players. People says it doesn’t work, but it does. I’ve come to use it a lot, especially in GoW. ( game is so notorious for early quitting sore losers) You’ll see that after a little while of using it constantly (every match preferably) your unfortunate encounters with the less etiquettely trained will start to dwindle. As a last resort, (except for cheating, which we all should have zero tolerance for) file a complaint. Also, it is okay to avoid players based on skill…..that’s how you avoid the people with “too much time on their hands” or those that have “mastered the game.”
Something very important to take note, because I have been known to drop an f-bomb or two online, is that when I or others like me (possible irl friends) swear or say something “offensive”, it’s never towards a person, but towards the game, in frustration; host advantage, anyone?
Another great grievance that I know most might have ( I know all my friends and I do) is we loathe players that don’t use/have mics. Being in the “Pro” zone, we want to win and to win, communication is key. As a general rule and because I’ve seen this happen online, which I find completely ridiculous, DON’T ever, ever.. talk-trash your own teammates. It makes no sense. It’ll hurt your team, and help theirs.
Remember, you pay for the service. Use it to its fullest.
Yes, Online d-bags are what keep me from playing many games with strangers. I now have a daughter and she won’t be going online any time soon. Yes, I would also keep my son offline for a while, too.
As a feature PM with Xbox Live, I can tell you that we’re very serious about cleaning up the experience to make it more friendly to the people you describe. Accountability, reward, and sensible enforcement are some of the ways in which you can achieve this. For now, Marvin’s suggestion of using the feedback system is a great start and enforcement is taken seriously.
This is not GoW2 related. More related to your Twitter. When I first saw you on Tekzilla’s CES episode (I think), you reminded me of Jade Raymond, the Producer of Assassin’s Creed.
BTW, check out our podcast where we interview Andrea Rene, Mahalo Daily VLOGIdol finalist and . . .
Would you consider coming on the show yourself? Seeing as how you’re a gamer as well?
the controls are the hardest things for girls/ non gamers to overcome. For some reason they all end up staring at the sky.
I’m a girl gamer, and I play online shooter games a lot. I always hear people complaining about online harassments, but I’ve never experienced it myself. I am a PS3 owner though, and rumors have that xbox community is much less girl-friendly.
Another nice thing about PS3 is you can change the pitch of your voice. I’ve never done that since I’ve never been harassed before, but it may come handy some day.
Now, back to GoW.
I honestly don’t think GoW can attract girls (who’re not into online shooter games), or anyone who’s not crazy about shooter games as a matter of fact, no matter what they do. Shooting games require a steep learning curve, and getting slaughtered online would drive newbies away before they get good enough to enjoy the game.
[...] How to really make GoW2 more ‘girlfriend-friendly’ – Veronica Belmont ‘I appreciate that Cliffy B. is thinking about making the game ‘girlfriend-friendly’ but I don’t know if that’s really at the heart of the matter.’ [...]
The worst thing about online gaming has always been other people. Nature of the beast. Nobody really likes being in that environment except for the people perpetuating it. Unfortunately, that’s the majority, and I guess that’s why XBL’s avoid function is so inadequate. I play 1-vs-1 games and the thing still doesn’t keep them away.
I will have to respectfully disagree with you V, even though I enjoyed reading the post. I think that GoW’s efforts are laudable–but the reasons are subtle. If they make an effort to change the game’s culture by refusing to reinforce negative stereotypes about women, it could potentially have a profound effect on the player base. The male idiots who harass women spend a lot of time in the game. Games have ideology–and character development and appearance factor into that. If you have a gender-neutral game, it’s harder to be a sexist player. The game–like it or not–influences its players in ways that are difficult to trace.
What is this I hear? Girls play Videogames? Noooooo. Say it isn’t so!
Joking-and-deliberate-sexist comments aside,
If the rating system was more social within Xbox live it would probably stamp out the problem. As a middle aged (albeit male) gamer doesn’t want to listen to the same whining teenager who calls girls sluts, then they should be resigned to the lower echelons of the gamer community. Maybe MS could create “Playrooms” for the little boys who need to grow up – and social voting puts them there.
It probably depends on the type of “girlfriend” you want to play the game. Cliffy B. is probably referring to girlfriends who don’t play much video games or GoW types of games and don’t want to sit around watching their boyfriends play while ignoring them.
We all know that you, Veronica, is not that type of girl so the issues that you’d like addressed are very different.
There is no one solution for such a general demographic.
If more and more women kept on playing through the dreck that some people spit out in online games and there were a larger force playing, eventually it wouldn’t be so uncommon and maybe it would stop. Because it’s such a guy dominated area and guys generally talk a load of shit and insult each other in demeaning ways that’s the kind of environment that online gaming stems from.
I think if online gaming had grown up out of a predominately female section, you would rarely see guys playing. Not really something I’ve thought much about and I’m not a woman, so I can’t really begin to comprehend how that would actually look if it really happened that way. Interesting thought though.
How do you think that it would look if it had happened like that?
One idea that occurred to me is that they’d all play nice and then have bitch sessions afterwards.
My wife and I love to play games together. We play everything from MMOs and RPGs to shooters and fighters. Her favorite 2 series are Zelda (she swoons over Link) and Soul Caliber.
Th scantily clad females, although annoying to both of us, do not bother either of us that often anymore. We are used to them being there, but we hope the game industry grows up a little more and starts making their female characters more natural.
However people always neglect to mention on stereotyping of men. Yes, men in games are just as stereotypical as women. How many games use guys with big arms and chests, bulging muscle and a bad-ass attitude? Too many.
Take, for example, Uncharted Drake’s Fortune. This game is an excellent game, with both a female and male character. In fact, they are surprisingly realistic and natural looking characters, nothing over the top. But take Drake, despite the fact he can jump 50 feet through the air and grab onto a 2 inch deep stone alcove on a wall without falling, his physical appearance is not over the top, but still typical. Although I do love his character, he is the typical guy with a mesomorph body type. How far is he from stereotypical? I look nothing like him, most of my friends are not as fit as he, and this is what we have to play with and none of the guys complain. Elena is similar to this. She is fit, but not busty and not scantily clad. She is attractive, but not really stereotypical as most games depict girls. I have not heard anyone complain about her.
But in contrast, Conan using scantily clad busty women all over, and a guy with HUGE muscles and unrealistic proportions. Yet people complain about the women more than him… It is not the stereotyping that is the deal, it is the objectivity, the sex-symbol status. Men seem to not care as much as women but here you will find one male gamer that is upset at both male and female stereotyping in games, but has learned to live with it.
The problem is, with online games at least, down to 2 things. Those with short tempers that LOVE to curse and swear and act like immature children (bad-losers), and those that love to over-power their opponents (and allies!) and dominate the game (bad-winners). These people are the same people, but one has experience/skill and the other does not. The problem here is all the rest of us who just want to play a game are stuck with PKers, swear-factories, and people who hold personal vendettas. Take out one of these “dominating” players and they target you as their main target.
It gets old fast and no one enjoys the game. They take things too personally and are not willing to play fair or nice.
I guess this means the problem with getting girls to play online is that guys play online. Not all guys are like this, but enough of them are that it makes it unpleasant for the rest of us, girls and guys. I guess more girls are upset by this than guys, but I have avoided many a video game (like Halo) because of this. Co-op is my favorite, cause it is a team effort, even with enemies, but other guys out there need to take games lighter, and not so serious! I hope to enjoy Metal Gear Online when it is out next week, but I fully expect to run into all the regular problems (I already did in the beta).
it would be nice if there was a way to report abuse. but, i guess at least we could shoot them. GOW and GTA are great about that. *evil grin* real gamers don’t care who you are or what skill you have they just want to play. i do both in person gaming and online gaming and i’ll play vs or with anybody. i’m not sure why some game player need to be that way.
Hmm…True. This kinda remind me of the Chief from the “Arby n’ the Chief” Machinima. He really represents all those insensitive and rude XBL players that talk in a very rude manner and has no idea how to appropriately approach women.
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